tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post4848739857800066117..comments2019-04-01T11:57:01.726-05:00Comments on As For Me and My House...: Life on an island....Ellis Murphreehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10366467132733647443noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post-89347811168625372542008-10-02T22:51:00.000-05:002008-10-02T22:51:00.000-05:00Beth,We almost packed our bags and hopped in the c...Beth,<BR/>We almost packed our bags and hopped in the car after reading the last newsletter....:) You guys are in our prayers and on our hearts daily.Ellis Murphreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10366467132733647443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post-25837780899402990272008-10-02T18:38:00.000-05:002008-10-02T18:38:00.000-05:00Good post, Ellis. Wish you could be here--we're do...Good post, Ellis. Wish you could be here--we're doing it, and it's drawing the people we can reach. Glory to God!Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589184828366565081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post-13113508157352526352008-09-27T01:37:00.000-05:002008-09-27T01:37:00.000-05:00Hi Ellis,I think we are probably in agreement, alt...Hi Ellis,<BR/><BR/>I think we are probably in agreement, although we might not agree on the sort of outreach activity that should be pursued.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that getting people to come to church and using the church services as primarily evangelistic tools is probably not that effective. It is possible that special evangelistic meetings can be effective, but this usually involves a lot of other work ahead of time, a special emphasis in the preaching of the services, etc.<BR/><BR/>And I agree that many evangelical efforts that I criticise above fail largely because they don't go far enough, and the preaching is minimized or abandoned.<BR/><BR/>So mostly what I am sounding here is a voice of caution. Social engagement is fraught with peril! The means can become the end.<BR/><BR/>And some means are really incompatible with preaching. You mention a crisis pregnancy center... such a ministry seems quite compatible with preaching the gospel of grace one on one. Other ministries seem less compatible ... disaster relief, for example. I think we might have a human obligation to help out in a disaster as we can, but does that help give me a license to preach? Is it preaching oriented? Does the one helped owe me a hearing? I'm not sure about all that, and thus I am not sure that it is compatible with the mission of the <I>church</I>. It still may well be the right thing to do because of our common humanity, though.<BR/><BR/>So when I think a ministry of helps of some kind, I think I need to be doing something that is compatible with preaching, or allows me to preach in some way as I minister.<BR/><BR/>Maranatha!<BR/>Don Johnson<BR/>Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post-39964797865721508462008-09-26T06:07:00.000-05:002008-09-26T06:07:00.000-05:00Thanks for the comments, Don.I don't know that I c...Thanks for the comments, Don.<BR/><BR/>I don't know that I completely disagree with most of what you are saying here, brother. Speaking in broad terms, where the Evangelicals have failed in this area is the fact that much of the time this "social action" is where they stop. In my opinion, engaging the community....meeting them on their turf so to speak, should be a means to an end. I think the Evangelicals had the right idea.....they just came up short in the execution.<BR/><BR/>The local church should certainly be geared toward the believer. However, this issue of being the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world" requires more than just sitting around the same campfire with the same people. Some of the things I mentioned (teen crisis centers, addictions recovery programs, pre-release ministries, etc.) are not only great opportunities to show Christ to the community, but they also provide us an opportunity to address the woes of society in a way that puts the Bible at the center of it all. <BR/><BR/>I get the impression from your post that you are inferring from my statements that I'm interested in social interaction that is "preaching-free". That's certainly not my heart.<BR/><BR/>What we tend to forget sometimes is that the people we are trying to reach are a mess. Sometimes their marriages are on the verge of ending; they are facing financial ruin; they are getting their butts kicked by some sort of an addiction.... Bringing them to church so we can preach to them is all too often the main focus of outreach in Fundamentalism. This particular methodology has failed as much as that of the Evangelicals. <BR/><BR/>"The foolishness of preaching" doesn't mean that everything we do in our interaction needs to culminate in a formal sermon, does it? Could it not mean that we meet these people where they are, offer them support and resources to deal with their particular messes, all the while presenting Christ to them?<BR/><BR/>I am a believer of all our ministry endeavors being organized around proclamation and preaching. However, I would propose that we can have it "both ways" so to speak.Ellis Murphreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10366467132733647443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1864230769854544092.post-70632994127137777002008-09-26T00:11:00.000-05:002008-09-26T00:11:00.000-05:00Hi Ellis,First, count me in the camp that says tha...Hi Ellis,<BR/><BR/>First, count me in the camp that says that the type of community outreach you speak of are NOT the mission of the church. As far as I can tell, there is no New Testament precedent for anything of the kind and there is Mt 28.19-20 and the other great commission passages.<BR/><BR/>Second, the discipleship ministry of the church does mean that a large percentage of the ministry should be saint-building rather than sinner-gathering. What percentage? I don't know, but it is the goal and certainly should be significant.<BR/><BR/>Third, the sinner-gathering part of the ministry should be preaching oriented. See 1 Cor 1 and the "foolishness of preaching". Now some ministries can be performed with the view to creating preaching opportunities - but (hopefully) not by manipulation. Nevertheless, every ministry should be oriented around proclamation and preaching. This is how God saves sinners. I suspect that a good deal of interest in 'other' types of ministries is to avoid the stigma that comes from preaching.<BR/><BR/>Finally, consider the many evangelical efforts that have been expended in many varieties of social action type ministries. How effective have they been in winning people to Christ and creating disciples? I don't mean, can you cite anecdotes from individual cases here and there, but consider the overall effectiveness of evangelicals in the last 50 years. Social action was one of their complaints about fundamentalism and they broke with us on purpose to promote it (among other things). How well have they done? Is our society better off? More godly?<BR/><BR/>Sorry to wax on, but I think that we do have to be careful in this area.<BR/><BR/>Maranatha!<BR/>Don Johnson<BR/>Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.com